Parents, Kids Hear EVERYTHING You Say!

0:066 secondsHi Seami, how are you today? Good. How are you doing? 0:1010 secondsGreat, thanks for asking. Thank you so much for being an art house expert storyteller. I think a lot of people are 0:1919 secondsgoing to really appreciate everything you have to share with us today and some tools and tips they can walk away with. 0:2626 secondsum would love to begin with knowing more about you formally. 0:3131 secondsSure. So I um I live in the Bay Area. So I'm a licensed marriage and family 0:3737 secondstherapist and we have a practice here in Fremont and San Jose called Mindset Counseling Group. and it's been growing 0:4646 secondsover time and we've been really there's a part of our practice that focuses on supporting the South Asian Indian Pakistani community which I really um is 0:5555 secondsa specialty of mine and something that I really care about because I really want to make sure that we are talking about mental health in our community and also 1:031 minute, 3 secondsthat people who are from our community are able to find clinicians and therapists that understand the culture, 1:101 minute, 10 secondsunderstand the background, understand the languages. there's so much to um our backgrounds that you know it's really helpful if the clinicians already 1:181 minute, 18 secondsunderstand some of this so that it doesn't have to be explained through the process and so it's been really great we've been I've been working in the 1:261 minute, 26 secondscommunity for 18 years now and it's been really nice to see over time that the community is finding us um you know we 1:331 minute, 33 secondshave like teenagers we have young adults adults couples coming in families so we're we're really here to support um wherever we can. It's been really nice. 1:461 minute, 46 secondsThank you. Okay. I know we chose to speak about divorce and the emotional 1:531 minute, 53 secondsstruggles associated with it in the South Asian community be it children or the parents. 2:012 minutes, 1 secondTo begin with, I wanted to ask you why is divorce so different in dii you know this whole south Asian diaspora when 2:082 minutes, 8 secondscompared to more induistic cultures. I think for our culture, it's still a relatively new construct, right? It's a 2:162 minutes, 16 secondsrelatively new um uh phenomenon that we're going through. You know, a lot of our traditional families that grew up in 2:232 minutes, 23 secondsIndia, like it was very rare still um to have divorced families. And so now coming into the US, um a lot of our 2:312 minutes, 31 secondsfamilies here, it's it's a different generational shift. You know, it's um it's a different concept that people are now trying to navigate. And it's because 2:402 minutes, 40 secondsit's so new to our culture, our our families are struggling a bit to navigate this process. Um because you 2:482 minutes, 48 secondsknow, one of the challenges that I've seen is that a lot of the families, the moms, 2:542 minutes, 54 secondsum there's an assumption that the custody if there's children involved that the custody will default or go primarily to the mom. And that's not how 3:033 minutes, 3 secondsin California it's a 50-50 state for custody. it's the default um if there's no other outside concerns. So that's a 3:113 minutes, 11 secondsbig wakeup call for a lot of my families um to see. So that's just one of the issues. It's like um it's just a lot to learn. Like it's very new to our 3:203 minutes, 20 secondsculture. Um people are a little bit hesitant still to talk about it. They don't have other families that have gone through it in the day community. So they don't know who to discuss this with. Um, 3:313 minutes, 31 secondsso sometimes coming to the therapist, 3:333 minutes, 33 secondsthis is maybe the first conversations they're having or they've been like researching a little bit online. Um, I also tell people maybe get a consult 3:403 minutes, 40 secondswith a um, family law attorney just to kind of run through some questions and get some basics down. Um, but it's a lot 3:483 minutes, 48 secondsto answer your question. I think it's a lot of information, new information to take in and our community is not very 3:553 minutes, 55 secondsexperienced. So this is why it's it's um it's been a challenge for many of my families to to you think sorry you think we still see 4:044 minutes, 4 secondsthe whole social uh for sure yeah people are like oh what is my neighbor going to say what is this 4:114 minutes, 11 secondsone going to say how am I going to tell the school I don't want the school to know I don't want this one to know that one to know and I think that also kind 4:194 minutes, 19 secondsof creates a little that creates more stress for our families but that also creates a lot of confusion for the kids because then the kids are like, "Well, I think we are going through a divorce." 4:294 minutes, 29 secondsAnd they're more aware because I don't know, culturally, like they're growing up in this country and with the the shows and the things that they're 4:364 minutes, 36 secondsexposed to, like they're more aware of this. Um, but the but the parents sometimes are not ready to to talk about 4:444 minutes, 44 secondssay divorce or say that we're going through this. um they're worried about the stigma where actually um they don't realize that most couples are going 4:524 minutes, 52 secondsthrough some kind of strain or tension or stress. doesn't mean that everyone's going through a divorce, but it's like it's um marital relationships are 5:015 minutes, 1 secondchallenging and so it's um yeah, it's it's something that a lot of people are facing and I just feel like some people are going through it um behind closed 5:115 minutes, 11 secondsdoors and it's it's causing more harm than good to kind of keep all that to yourself um versus getting support. Like you can come to a counselor and it'll 5:185 minutes, 18 secondsstill be confidential. You can go to an attorney. It'll still be confidential, 5:225 minutes, 22 secondsbut you should doing it by yourself is really is tough. Yeah. 5:275 minutes, 27 secondsSo, what do you see or hear commonly? Is it guilt? We already covered shame. 5:345 minutes, 34 secondsUh, it's guilt. It's shame. It's it's like anger. It's fear. There's a lot of fear of like how are we going to do this, 5:445 minutes, 44 secondsyou know, the how like how are we going to have two households? How are we going to financially support two households, 5:515 minutes, 51 secondsespecially in the Bay Area? How are we going to manage co-parenting? You know, 5:565 minutes, 56 secondsif the kids are going to go back and forth, this is a big So, I'm I'm a big supporter of the co-parenting piece. So, 6:036 minutes, 3 secondsa lot of families come to me um for co-parenting support. We kind of come up with a plan or structure. Um, some 6:116 minutes, 11 secondsfamilies are going to court, Shriy, and they're having so much trouble that the judges are now ordering co-parenting counseling. 6:206 minutes, 20 secondsThey're like, "You must now by the court's order seek out counseling with the with the specialist because you guys 6:276 minutes, 27 secondsare so disorganized around this that the courts don't have time to sort this out for everybody. So, they'll send so we have some court-ordered families that 6:356 minutes, 35 secondsare coming to us, which is actually it's not a bad thing. It's just the court has identified, hey, this is a need. Um, you guys should get some support and um it 6:446 minutes, 44 secondstakes it takes time to develop a new plan. This is a new phase for a family, 6:506 minutes, 50 secondsa stage of life. And so, it takes a little bit of time to get organized. And so, the courts don't have this kind of time. So, they'll send it to a counselor 6:586 minutes, 58 secondsin the community. So that's kind of also something we're seeing more and more of is our Indian families going through the court system and then maybe 7:067 minutes, 6 secondsself-electing or the court is ordering that they have at least you know sometimes it's five 10 sessions with the counselor for co-parenting. Yeah. 7:177 minutes, 17 secondsWhat are some of the unhealthy ways that these parents cope with all this? 7:257 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, 7:267 minutes, 26 secondsuh there's a lot of venting. This is one I have to kind of watch my parents and caution my parents. I say, "Guys, I know 7:337 minutes, 33 secondsthis is tough. I know um you want to you don't want to be live with this partner anymore, but this this person is always going to be this children's parent. 7:437 minutes, 43 secondsSo, that's not going to change." And you might be like, "I don't want to live with this person. I don't want to be partnered with this person anymore." You have some choice in that. 7:527 minutes, 52 secondsthe kiddos do not have a choice that this is going to be a parent for the rest of their life. So, we have to be very mindful of how we're talking about the parent, 8:028 minutes, 2 secondseach parent, the partners in front of the kids, right? So, this comes up a lot. 8:078 minutes, 7 secondsI noticed this a lot, a challenge for my families because they're like, "Nate, I'm not talking to the kids about dad, 8:138 minutes, 13 secondslet's say, but I was on the phone with my sister going off or I was on vending to my best friend and the six-year-old 8:228 minutes, 22 secondsis like listening, right? Somehow these kids like absorb all these conversations and they're listening to us. And so I I 8:298 minutes, 29 secondscaution my parents. I say, "Guys, I don't mind you venting, getting support. 8:338 minutes, 33 secondsPlease do it when the kiddos are out of the h like they're at school. They're at their dad's house. You know, just be very mindful." Um, you know, the other 8:428 minutes, 42 secondsday a mom was saying, she's like, "Oh, I was just in the kitchen talking to my mom and her mom was home like in the home and she's like, "The six-year-old 8:508 minutes, 50 secondswas upstairs. Yeah, well, like whatever." And I'm like, well, somehow he has heard all of what you were, you know, you were pretty upset and you 8:578 minutes, 57 secondsknow, he heard all that and that's not help that's not helpful to the children. 9:029 minutes, 2 secondsSo, I'm really trying to um impress upon my parents that like we have to be mindful of how we're speaking about the 9:089 minutes, 8 secondsother parent if the kids are around because it's it's making that impression and and and then it's like we're having 9:169 minutes, 16 secondsall this negative if it's negative talk and then we're sending the kid to that parents house later that night for a visit or for a custody exchange and then 9:249 minutes, 24 secondsthe child's like has all this in their head, right? It's causing a lot of confusion. Um. Mhm. 9:299 minutes, 29 secondsNow that we already spoke about the children, what do you think are the emotional struggles for the child or the children involved? What? 9:379 minutes, 37 secondsThere's a lot of confusion. Huh, Shri? 9:399 minutes, 39 secondsThere's a lot of confusion. The kids are like, "What is happening? Why does dad live in this house and mom lives in this house and how long is this going to happen?" So, I try to tell my families, 9:519 minutes, 51 secondslet's try to give them as much grounding as possible. Be like, "Okay, dad's going to give them facts, right? Dad's going to live here. Mom's going to live here. 9:599 minutes, 59 secondsYour school is not going to change. If we can, if we cannot change schools, 10:0410 minutes, 4 secondsthat would be great because we want as much consistency for them as possible as they're going through this other change with within the family. So, uh, some of 10:1310 minutes, 13 secondsmy families also move during this period. And I say that's a lot of change for a kiddo. Um, so if we can keep the 10:2010 minutes, 20 secondsschools the same, but what I want is to basically um tell the child what this is going to look like. Like try to like I 10:2810 minutes, 28 secondseven say to many of my families, I'm like get a physical calendar, a big one, maybe one of those desk ones, like the big ones, 10:3510 minutes, 35 secondsand go through the month. Like we'll go through, we'll do it sometimes here in the office in for Feb and we'll be like, 10:4210 minutes, 42 secondslet's go through the month. Okay, it's Valentine's Day. It's this, you know, 10:4610 minutes, 46 secondsMonday's off. and we get we put all the dates on the calendar and then I sit with one of the parents. I'm like, "Can we run through the custody what the what 10:5510 minutes, 55 secondsthe exchanges look like, who has who has a child when, what's the schedule for the month?" And you can color code. I 11:0211 minutes, 2 secondslike to color code one parent in one color and one parent in a different color. And try to make this clear to the child. 11:1011 minutes, 10 secondsThis is a lot to navigate. And it's also really helpful for the parent, too. I say, "Hey, put this up in the house so we can see it." And so, and the child 11:1811 minutes, 18 secondsthe child sometimes my ch the kids will be like, "Am I going to dad's today?" 11:2211 minutes, 22 secondsAnd we'll be like, "No, actually, let's go look at the calendar." And I say, "Walk over to the calendar and say, "Nay, today's the, you know, the 19th. 11:3011 minutes, 30 secondsWe're actually going to dad's on the 21st. Like, see the date here?" And we need to set up structures and routines for them. And this is also 11:3911 minutes, 39 secondsagain where our office is able to help with this process a little bit. But again, who is helping the parent? You know, the parents have so much they're um managing that this is like one piece. 11:5111 minutes, 51 secondsThere's so many pieces. This is one where the counselor can help. And um so again to answer that question is more less confusion, 12:0012 minutesmore routines, 12:0212 minutes, 2 secondsstructure, trying to kind of be clear what kind of the week looks like, what the month looks like depending on the ages of the kids too, like the 12:1012 minutes, 10 secondssophistication of how much information we share, right? A 5-year-old versus a 12y old might look a little different. 12:1912 minutes, 19 secondsSo here's one thing though, right? 12:2212 minutes, 22 secondsThey will still may act out. The kids may act out. Oh yeah. 12:2712 minutes, 27 secondsAnd how do you like I don't know how do you recognize that this is actually because of this monumental change 12:3412 minutes, 34 secondshappening in their lives? It could be what can you do? How do you recognize? 12:3812 minutes, 38 secondsIt could be so many things, right? It could be like you have a 12-year-old who's in seventh grade who's having bullying at school. Like it could be 12:4512 minutes, 45 secondsother things going on. The one thing that's common that we also talk about in the counseling um for my families is 12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsthat the transition days can be uh a little bit bumpy for the families. 13:0013 minutesSo I say to parents I'm like please anticipate that any transition needs a little bit of space. So for 13:0813 minutes, 8 secondsexample like we transition let's say on Fridays meaning we're going to go from mom's house. They've been the kid the kids have been at mom's house all all 13:1513 minutes, 15 secondsweek. Friday afternoon, they're going to go to dad's and be a dad's for the weekend or for the next following week. 13:2113 minutes, 21 secondsUm that transition day, that Friday afternoon, maybe after school, I tell the the receiving parent, "Dad, I say, 13:2913 minutes, 29 secondsplease don't have a lot of activities planned up right when he they're transitioning to your house. I need a soft landing. I need like a transition 13:3813 minutes, 38 secondstime where they're back to your house. I need the house to be as um calm and welcoming and warm and have 13:4813 minutes, 48 secondsfood and have things set up for them so that you are you spent the week kind of prepping to have them receive them, 13:5513 minutes, 55 secondsright? So your house is not chaotic. I want really the homes to be as steady as possible. And to keep in mind, don't 14:0314 minutes, 3 secondsplan a lot on the day that they're coming because sometimes they're, oh, I picked them up and we went straight to a playd date and we went straight to a 14:1014 minutes, 10 secondsthis and and the child is not had enough time to transition or maybe would like to have more of that grounding in the 14:1714 minutes, 17 secondshome to have a little bit of transition time. And so I tell people also, kids can act out during that period because 14:2514 minutes, 25 secondsthey're like they're a little bit, you know, change can be hard and and then they might be like, "Oh, I'm missing mom." And that's also fine. Be like, 14:3414 minutes, 34 seconds"Okay, fine. You're missing mom. Do you want to give her a call?" Like it's like, don't don't um create barriers around the other parent. Um set up a call. Say, "Let's call mom and say hi." 14:4414 minutes, 44 secondsAnd it's it'll literally be like two or three minutes and then they're kind of done. Like it's it'll move. Um so yeah so the transition days is something that 14:5214 minutes, 52 secondsI want parents to be mindful of and be thinking about. 14:5814 minutes, 58 secondsSo I'm thinking you have youth children who come to you who are not coping well right who are not you've given all this 15:0615 minutes, 6 secondsthe parents are kind of doing it right but there are clear signs and they're like hey we don't know how to help it could be academic which is like the 15:1515 minutes, 15 secondslowest but it's important in an Indian household or a south Asian household is sudden behavioral changes right and just 15:2415 minutes, 24 secondsgeneral withdrawal from things that they used to like I mean I guess we would say that child could actually be depressed. 15:3115 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. 15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsSo, do you what do you notice? What do you what do you do? 15:3615 minutes, 36 secondsWell, we notice is depression is is usually withdrawal from um activities. 15:4015 minutes, 40 secondsSo, they'll come over and they'll just go to the room and just close the door. 15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsWe have to sort that out because some of that is normal teenage behavior, normal teenage behavior. some of that is, but 15:5215 minutes, 52 secondsthen it's also like if there's very little engagement as far as like, you know, the next day we're like, let's go, it's a Saturday, let's go to lunch, 15:5915 minutes, 59 secondslet's go out, let's go do something, 16:0216 minutes, 2 secondslet's go to the movies, and the child is like, no, no, no, I don't want to, I don't want to. Um, 16:0816 minutes, 8 secondsnoticing any like strong ongoing withdrawal symptoms, right? And then you might want to be like you're trying to 16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsengage them, trying to talk to them. At some point you might want to say, "Hey, do we want to meet with the therapist?" 16:2216 minutes, 22 secondsand kind of talk about this for added support. Um, 16:2616 minutes, 26 secondsanother um warning sign is the kids start to say, "I don't want to go to school." Like that kind of withdrawal starts to happen with some of our 16:3416 minutes, 34 secondsfamilies. Um, so that's also not great because we can't have them missing too much school. Um sometimes as a 16:4316 minutes, 43 secondscompromise I'll tell the parents I say hey if they need to rest could you say um you want to sleep in and maybe miss 16:5216 minutes, 52 secondsfirst period today on Monday today and then I can take you second period. I can drop you a little bit later to school but it's not really an option to miss 17:0017 minutesthe day but I'm willing to be flexible with you to miss like first period and then drop you a little later. So I'm like also trying to kind of coach the parents like how can we work with them? 17:1117 minutes, 11 secondsum to be like, "I'm on your side." Like to I need that messaging with the parents to the child. I'm like, "I'm on your side. I want to I'm here to support 17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsyou." Um another tricky part, Truthy, is like the the child will be a dad's and they're like, "Well, I just want to go back to mom's house." 17:2817 minutes, 28 secondsAnd now the dad has feelings around that, right? The dad is like, "This is my time and you're supposed to be with me right now." 17:3617 minutes, 36 secondsSo, I also have to kind of help the parents manage some of their emotions because they can feel like rejection or they can feel like, "Oh, I did all this work to I've been missing them all week, 17:4617 minutes, 46 secondsright, to and I'm finally have the kids with me and now they want to go back to moms." And I say, you know, they're kids. They're allowed to have 17:5317 minutes, 53 secondspreferences of who they, you know, who they're attached to and who they want to spend time with. Give it a little bit of 18:0118 minutes, 1 secondspace. I don't want you to get a lot of defensiveness and forcing and say, but you know, this is our time together. I want to make it the best we can make it. 18:0818 minutes, 8 secondsLet's what can we do today? And yeah, it's a little bit bumpy. So, it's like that's part of the process is that 18:1518 minutes, 15 secondsthe kids might have a preference on whose house they want to be at um because they're still adjusting to this new schedule. 18:2318 minutes, 23 secondsSo, what are some of the coping skills that these kids can manage all this? because I feel like it's really hard, 18:3018 minutes, 30 secondsespecially if they're super loyal to both parents and they love them both. 18:3518 minutes, 35 secondsIt could be very hard to accept the divorce and yes, therapy, but what are some things that they do or you advise them to do on 18:4418 minutes, 44 secondsa day-to-day basis to just not the parents, the children themselves, 18:4818 minutes, 48 secondsright? I say to the children, I say, you know, speak up and check in with parents about how you're doing. Um, if there's things at dad's house that you're like, 18:5818 minutes, 58 seconds"Oh, this could be nicer or I c I could we have I had a child once, she's like, 19:0319 minutes, 3 seconds"Oh, I want the bedding to be different in my bed, but I don't know how to tell dad." And I said, "If you're going to be more comfortable at home with the 19:1119 minutes, 11 secondsbedding a little bit differently or it's like similar to mom's house or something, some preference you have, I want to build this comfort of 19:1919 minutes, 19 secondscommunication, right? that you can like tell your parent and like, "Oh, I really like to eat this in the mornings, 19:2519 minutes, 25 secondsright?" And so maybe the parent was like, "Oh, I didn't realize that like now you're eating this fruit or this cereal or this whatever." Um, and so to 19:3319 minutes, 33 secondstell dad or tell mom, I'm like, "Oh, I really like this. Can we do this more?" 19:3619 minutes, 36 secondsSo it's like we're trying to build communication but also um speak about share our needs in a safe way and also 19:4619 minutes, 46 secondsyou know create a comfortable environment like these things all will be helpful to them and then also open communication be like hey if anything's 19:5319 minutes, 53 secondsbothering you can talk to me and I need to make sure parents are not forcing that conversation to be like you need to tell me right now what's bothering you 20:0220 minutes, 2 secondsand what's going on and it doesn't work like that doesn't Um the other thing that's I've seen work 20:0920 minutes, 9 secondsis that we have time you know at a parents house if there's other support supportive adults around like suppose we 20:1620 minutes, 16 secondshave extended family aunts uncles grandparents we have neighbors we have family friends we say hey we're going to 20:2420 minutes, 24 secondshang out with friends and stuff so it's like trying to create community from your house um that also has been helpful 20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsfor my for my kids the the kids are going through a divorce process to feel like they have they're they're connected right to other um supportive adults. So that's also been something to consider. 20:4520 minutes, 45 secondsActually, I was going to ask you about extended families, but you covered it. That's awesome. Yeah. 20:5020 minutes, 50 secondsSo, I think we're kind of getting close to the end. I was wondering if there is one piece of advice you had to give Daisy families going through divorce, 21:0021 minuteswhat would that be? 21:0321 minutes, 3 secondsto acknowledge to self that this is hard, 21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsthis is new, and give yourself a little bit of time to sort it out because parents get very stressed out that they're supposed to have all the answers, 21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsbut you may not have all the answers. 21:1821 minutes, 18 secondsUm, try to seek out answers. You can come to a counselor. You can maybe talk to another adult that's been through a 21:2621 minutes, 26 secondsdivorce process, maybe like a co-orker or a friend or something. get information so you don't feel so alone. 21:3321 minutes, 33 secondsI feel like the parents feel very isolated and um alone in this process. 21:3821 minutes, 38 secondsUm please try to shield your anxiety and stress from the children because they absorb they see, you know, they're like, 21:4621 minutes, 46 seconds"We can get into the car and we can tell dad is stressed out." And I was like, 21:5121 minutes, 51 seconds"Oh." They're like, "He hasn't even said anything." And I was like, they're like, "We can tell he's stressed out, right?" 21:5621 minutes, 56 secondsAnd I'm like, "Okay, if you're having time with your kids, I want you to kind of try to figure out how to make that the most," 22:0222 minutes, 2 secondsyou know, but I always wonder, "What about honest communication? We can't always be superheroes. It's that's setting up an unrealistic standard, 22:1122 minutes, 11 secondsright?" That's true. 22:1222 minutes, 12 secondsI always worry. It's very hard to perform like that, especially when you're going through something as difficult. I mean, not all the time. Sometimes. 22:2022 minutes, 20 secondsWell, I think I like this point. I think it's fine to say, "Hey, I'm a little bit stressed today. I'm a little bit worried today, but I don't want that to be the 22:2922 minutes, 29 secondsentire time you have your children with you. You've spent now on the phone or on the computer or like 22:3822 minutes, 38 secondsyou're so distracted that you're not making this time, quality time with your children because you've let the adult 22:4522 minutes, 45 secondshas let our stress and anxiety take over. And and so then the kids also then can't connect with us if we're too preoccupied. 22:5522 minutes, 55 secondsBut this is a good point. I said you don't have to be smiley and happy and jumpy all the time. That's also not reality. Um but try to kind of manage 23:0423 minutes, 4 secondssome of that when the kids are with us because they can pick it up and and then sometimes they are like, "Well, I don't really want to hang out with dad cuz 23:1223 minutes, 12 secondshe's like in a bad mood and that's really rough. We don't the kids then feel helpless 23:2023 minutes, 20 secondsto help us and to to be around us. Um yeah. 23:2623 minutes, 26 secondsAll right. Last question. What gives you hope when working with families in this transition? Like what makes you feel 23:3323 minutes, 33 secondslike you know what I'm You know what gives me hope, Shuy? Is the kids are speaking up. 23:4223 minutes, 42 secondsOh my goodness. Okay. I think we're raising kids. the schools are doing a a pretty okay job with like talking about 23:5023 minutes, 50 secondsmental health more and more in the school districts which I love. And there's, you know, we're identifying emotions and we're saying, "I'm happy. 23:5823 minutes, 58 secondsI'm sad. I'm ex, you know, um stressed." 24:0224 minutes, 2 secondsAnd so the kids are speaking up where they're like, "I don't like this. This is worrying me. This so this is um 24:1024 minutes, 10 secondsmaking me mad." So I have like five-year-olds saying like, "No, this is not okay." you know, and I was like, 24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsthis is amazing. So, the kids that this brings me hope as a therapist because I'm like, oh my gosh, the kids are having more language actually around 24:2424 minutes, 24 secondsemotion and emotional safety and communication um around their feelings than some of my 24:3124 minutes, 31 secondsadults, clients. Um so, that's bringing me hope because then the kids are able to speak up and say, you know, this is working, this is not working. Um the 24:4024 minutes, 40 secondsother thing that's giving me hope is that more and more families are finding providers. 24:4524 minutes, 45 secondsThey're like, "Oh my gosh, they are counselors that help with this stuff and uh they don't know like maybe they don't know that." Um so more families are 24:5324 minutes, 53 secondsfinding us um and help we're we're able to help them with the process so they don't feel so alone. So I think that gives me hope, too. 25:0225 minutes, 2 secondsThat's wonderful to hear. Thank you so much, Sen. Thank you so much. Hopefully um I don't know I'm sure there are 25:0925 minutes, 9 secondspeople out there who are going through this process and might not have you know much hope a lot of direction like we 25:1725 minutes, 17 secondsalways say in our cause they as they lack the words right then we worry way 25:2325 minutes, 23 secondstoo much about who's saying what the stigma and the shame and we don't act till there's a crisis right but 25:3225 minutes, 32 secondshopefully with everything that you've said here and seeing that people are coming that's changing and this story is going to help somebody your advice is 25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsgoing to help somebody navigating the same situation. I hope so. Thanks again but I'll see you soon. 25:4825 minutes, 48 secondsOkay. Thank you. Bye.